Knoware.no

Anything QL Software or Programming Related.
Tinyfpga
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Re: Knoware.no

Post by Tinyfpga »

mk posts:- I don't see any advantage to it. (SMS2 or CLI?)
I have yet to find a use for the SMSQE interpreter. An example of something I can't do with the SMS2 QD-Qlib-SBASIC thing would be enlightening.
On the other hand trying to convince someone outside of the QL world that SMSQE is more than a QDOS clone is difficult.
And:-
Although there may be no advantage to SMS2, the following comment extracted from one of TT's documents is interesting.
"SMSQ was SMS2 to which SuperBASlC compatibility was retrofitted. lt was inlended to provide a QL compatible operating system for various QL emulalors. ln general it was much faster than QDOS. lt was purely retrospective and did not further the Domesdos style OS principles.

In other words SMS2 was a path to a future whereas SMSQ was not. I suppose the E in SMSQE refers to the Enhanced drivers (DV3) developed for SMS2.
Last edited by Tinyfpga on Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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pjw
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Re: Knoware.no

Post by pjw »

Tinyfpga wrote:<>
I have just found the following post by Tony Tebby in a QL mail archive dated 21st Mar 2017.
TT.1.zip<>
Interesting read!
Tinyfpga wrote:<>I have two question for pjw.
1. What do you use SMSQE's interpreter for? (other than for running a BOOT program)
2. Where can I get a copy of Module Viewer and does it run on SMSQE itself?
(0) boot
1. Issuing commands
2. Post-boot ad hoc loading of toolkits applicable to all subsequent SBASIC
and Qlib jobs. (Cant be done in a daughter SBASIC)
3. It has the default console window for certain systems messages (real
channel #00000000)
4. Developing and testing bits and pieces of code.
5. Certain programs such as Turbo and Xref will only work with job #0

Basically, I couldnt do without it.

Module Viewer can be had from Knoware.no/htm/utils.htm. You need to load
the OS into the program as a file; ie as it stands, you cant view a ROM
image directly with it. (It would be interesting to see if it were possible
to view Stella's modules with it!) You cant view the currently running OS
with it either, not least of all because the module structure will have
been dissolved during loading! Requires Qlib_run and the latest ptrmen_cde.

Stella does interest me - not that I know what Id do with it.. Tony Tebby's
designs and work fascinate me - like the genius of a Rembrandt or a
Michelangelo. As for SMS2, I feel thats more of a sketch for a later work:
SMSQ/E. Rembrandt too had his employers and may have had to compromise his
art to meet their requirements. (And no, I havent forgotten that SMSQ/E has
been vastly improved, in his vein, since TT let go of it!)


Per
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Tinyfpga
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Re: Knoware.no

Post by Tinyfpga »

So:-
1. I don't issue commands, mostly because I don't know what they are.
2. Ad hoc loading of toolkits is just as easy post SMS2 startup.
3. SMS2 has a default console window that performs the same task.
4. Developing and testing tiny and not so tiny bits and bobs is all I currently do with the Qlib-QD thing.
I find doing this with the interpreter so painful that I don't do it.
5. I don't use Turbo and I don't know what Xref is.

At the moment the use of SMS2 is moot because SMSQE is much more practical. Meanwhile I have downloaded
Module viewer and will try it out at a later date.

As far as Stella is concerned, you could get it running on a Q68!!


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RalfR
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Re: Knoware.no

Post by RalfR »

Tinyfpga wrote:I suppose the E in SMSQE refers to the Enhanced drivers (DV3) developed for SMS2.
No, the "E" means, that the Extended Environment (Pointer I/F, Window Manager and Hotkey System 2) was built into it. This happens first with the Level E drivers for the range of Atari ST hardware emulators.


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Tinyfpga
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Re: Knoware.no

Post by Tinyfpga »

Just as interesting as TT's contribution, is Peter Graf's reply.
Arnaud Nazarian's post interested me as well, although I could not really understand it. I think
that he and TT tried to interest a pre-Iphone manufacture in Stella. Palm computing?
TT replies 1.zip
(2.18 KiB) Downloaded 74 times
The following people were linked to Dave Park's query :- Darren Branagh, Norman Dunbar
Ralph Rekondt, John Alexander and Urs Koenig.
I had no idea that Stella was being discussed in a QL mail-archive.

In my view Peter Graph is correct and Arnaud's proposal is unrealistic as in:-
"Let us find a billionaire who would like a real "smart" phone"
There are not many billionaires interested in promoting novel operating systems and it is my
experience that they are pretty elusive.
His suggestion that one build hardware first and then build an OS to suit it does not sound
like a good idea. See HP's "The Machine" problem mentioned in an earlier post.

During the discussion Norman Dunbar pointed to the following document that might
be of interest to some:-
TT2. Stella.zip
(17 KiB) Downloaded 83 times
One could consider the following:- SMS2 was compromised (in my opinion) by the need to make
it look like something from the past. There have also been a number of attempts to make SMSQE look
like a conventional desktop system.
If QLers have an overwhelming desire to seek comfort in familiarity, can you imagine what Stella
would have looked like if it had been funded by a conventional entity.

Stella currently has no user interface although one was proposed. As I have suggested
recently the last thing it should look like is something from the past.

The following file is here by mistake. I can't get rid of it
Attachments
TT.2.zip
(8.85 KiB) Downloaded 68 times


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pjw
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Re: Knoware.no

Post by pjw »

Tinyfpga wrote:Just as interesting as TT's contribution, is Peter Graf's reply.
Arnaud Nazarian's post interested me as well, although I could not really understand it. I think
that he and TT tried to interest a pre-Iphone manufacture in Stella. Palm computing?
TT replies 1.zip
The following people were linked to Dave Park's query :- Darren Branagh, Norman Dunbar
Ralph Rekondt, John Alexander and Urs Koenig.
I had no idea that Stella was being discussed in a QL mail-archive.
<>
Nice read, thanks. In fact I skimmed through many of the ql-user 2017
emails. It seems we had a lot more interesting conversations back then.. or
is this just another symptom of early-onset nostalgitis? And where did so
many of those people of 2017 go..?

Anyway, could any further discussion on SMS2 and Stella please move to a
different or new topic heading? Might see y'all there!


Per
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NormanDunbar
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Re: Knoware.no

Post by NormanDunbar »

I remember reading, years ago, an article by Tony Tebby about Stella and I was very interested in trying it out. Sadly, that was the last I ever heard of it and as far as I was/am aware it was only ever a "thought experiment" on Tony's part. I assumed that he, at least, would have had a copy which he was developing, but again, never heard a dicky bird.

It's interesting to hear that you have a 25 years old version of the system, how did you come to obtain this I wonder? Are you perhaps Tony's long lost only child? (I made that up, I have no idea if Tony had any children, lost or otherwise!) ;)


Cheers,
Norm.


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dilwyn
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Re: Knoware.no

Post by dilwyn »

mk79 wrote:
dilwyn wrote:I belong to the Norman Dunbar school of thought when it comes to Wurdle, and for the first time in my life I am going to pick on Marcel for something, for his "it's just a little game" comments. If you can totally isolate yourself from the hype and social media, where the weird wide Wurdle world seems to take great delight in showing off their latest result (it took me ages to figure out what the hell all the 'Wurdle 1234 5/6' postings meant),
Well, in Germany this game is virtually unheard of and the only person posting the Wordle stuff in my timeline is our Irish friend ;-) So it's pretty easy to miss the hype for me...
Well, an incident this morning has put me right off Wordle (not the Per variety). I asked a question on a Welsh language Bookface group about how the Welsh version would work (accented vowels and the double-consonants), so that I could prepare a wordlist for Per's version, and because the group insists on a photo with each post, I copied a photo I found online to satisfy the rules of the group. What I had no way of knowing was that the photo happened to contain the answer to a current puzzle and you would not believe the abusive messages I got within minutes of the post, one of which would have been enough to go to the police over had I not immediately deleted the DM before I thought of that. It's only a game indeed Marcel - Online Brits are getting more like a Trumpian state every day with their crazy behaviour.
EDIT: After posting this, I thought that I should explain my comments are absolutely nothing to do with the QL scene and none of the people involved were QL users AFAIK. The whole situation only arose indirectly because of taking an interest in Per's software.


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NormanDunbar
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Re: Knoware.no

Post by NormanDunbar »

Takes moderator hat off.......

Dilwyn, some people are complete and utter fuckwits! The slightest thing gets them all riled up, and god help us if they have to stop doing something they want to do.

Puts moderator hat back on.


Cheers,
Norm.


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RalfR
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Re: Knoware.no

Post by RalfR »

dilwyn wrote:I remember that Ralf picked up a few words of Welsh quite easily when he visited Wales some years ago (Hi Ralf).
Mae'n rhaid mai dyma'r geiriau "Pa mor sbeislyd ydych chi ei eisiau?"

:D :D


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