Knoware.no

Anything QL Software or Programming Related.
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dilwyn
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Re: Knoware.no

Post by dilwyn »

Well, I'm still on Derek's waiting list for a Q68, so I can dream.

Great that Peter is thinking along these lines with QZero and continuing to develop when he has time.

Sounds like it would be small enough to fit inside a modern monitor if we find one with a small amount of free space inside, maybe (or attached to one at least) to provide an all-in-one "QL". Nothing wrong with emulators like QPC2 and QemuLator of course, just that it's nice sometimes to use a QL system which isn't an emulator.

Being somewhat lacking in desk space here, I'm really looking forward to a small footprint system. Maybe I could attach it to one of the PC monitors here so that the monitor is shared between PC and QL just by switching monitor inputs. A little bit like the old Intel Stick plug in PC I have at my son's house.


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Re: Knoware.no

Post by Derek_Stewart »

Tinyfpga wrote:The "Windowing Hardware" the TT article porbably refers to, is the "SLICK Windowing Display Controller" Designed by QJUMP Limited.

TT's last comment on the controller was as follows:-
"The only thing that is remarkable about the design is that seven years after it was originally conceived, the circumstances which gave rise to the original design have not changed at all"

The circuitry could be implemented in FPGA, possibly in a Qzero.
Hi,

Do you have the details, specification or even source to SLICK?


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Derek
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RalfR
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Re: Knoware.no

Post by RalfR »

Tinyfpga wrote:The "Windowing Hardware" the TT article probably refers to, is the "SLICK Windowing Display Controller" designed by QJUMP Limited.

TT's last comment on the controller was as follows:-
"The only thing that is remarkable about the design is that seven years after it was originally conceived, the circumstances which gave rise to the original design have not changed at all"

The circuitry could be implemented in FPGA, possibly in a Qzero.
I have ever thought, that QJump has done more, as that ever saw the light of day, just REMark QPLQ. Do you know more of this "Windowing Hardware"?


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Re: Knoware.no

Post by pjw »

Peter wrote:<>
pjw wrote:I dont know if there are off-the-shelf solutions that could be used, or whether other hobbyist groups have solutions one might adopt, but I know Id sleep better at night if I knew people were thinking along those lines rather than trying to re-create a "better" 1980's QL ;o)
As I wrote, I've been more than just thinking. But separate video won't turn a medium range 68K system into someting that's fun for highcolor with highres.
At its simplest level: Ive experienced the difference between an Atari ST with and without a blitter chip. The difference isnt trivial. Block drawing is one of the most fundamental graphics operations and could "easily" be foisted onto another chip without involving the CPU. There are many ways to peel an orange! Eg I agree with what Thierry was trying to explain to you about DMA some time ago. It doesnt all have to be about raw CPU speed to get a sense of an overall comfortable speed of a system.
But, as you rightly more or less delicately suggest, I have no competency in the matter, so who am I to have an opinion?


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Peter
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Re: Knoware.no

Post by Peter »

pjw wrote:Eg I agree with what Thierry was trying to explain to you about DMA some time ago.
That was not something I needed to get explained, but nonsense. It was about a 68060 and no separate bus between memory and slow peripheral, instructions running fully inside cache. In that case only peripheral speed was the bottleneck, practically nothing won by DMA. "Advice" like that just means adding 30-40% more work to an already insane amount, and getting a purely academical gain.

In case of video accelleration with an independent bus, I agree it would be more than just academical for specific tasks. Still nothing that would bring a medium 68K system even remotely near emulator speed. Atari ST and blitter is a poor example by the way. A sytem that had bus bandwidth left. Those days are long gone.
Last edited by Peter on Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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RalfR
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Re: Knoware.no

Post by RalfR »

Peter wrote:Atari ST and blitter is a poor example by the way
I haven't seen, that the Blitter in my MegaST4 had do much more speed. The real speed came with NVDI and Gemini GUI with QVME.


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Re: Knoware.no

Post by Peter »

Yes the blitter was even outperformed by faster CPUs.


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Re: Knoware.no

Post by RalfR »

For ST, QVME was a very big advantage, Thanks to Jochen to supply a disk to use Atari ST with a bigger screen with QVME. This software brings a "cookie" (some kinde of "system variables") and most of the good written ST software (esp. Calamus) could read them.


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Re: Knoware.no

Post by pjw »

I was making some general observations. Taking those observations out of context and then flogging them to death seems a bit, ah, whats the word..
Anyway, am I to understand Im also talking "nonsense"? I'll put such remarks down cultural differences this once. Just remember this is a friendly international forum, not Twitter, so play nice ;o)


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Re: Knoware.no

Post by Tinyfpga »

The SLICK Windowing Display Controller was designed to do in hardware what is currently being done in software. Although creating the system in FPGA would be far from a trivial task it was designed some time ago and thus reflects the kind of hardware that was available in simpler times.

The design exists in a reasonably detailed format but not as a functional circuit diagram. I cannot program FPGA's but I approached a company that can. The problem is that SLICK was designed to work in conjunction with an SMS type computing architecture, so it would not be useful as an independent graphics processor.
The good news is that their hourly charge is less than mine (which is amazing, considering that they are significantly cleverer than me).
I like to believe that at some time in the future I will be able to organize and pay for SLICK to be implemented in, lets say, a Qzero.

To test the difference of display performance between QPC and a Q68, I decided to recreate the Amiga bouncing ball demo running in a moveable SMSQE window. I Installed QPC on a Lenovo Thinkpad X220 containing an i5-2520m (running at 2.5Ghz).
A large ball bounces smoothly on QPC. For a smooth bounce on a Q68 the ball has to have a diameter that is a 1/4 of the large ball. I think that is a pretty impressive performance for system that is 100 times(maybe more?) less powerful than the PC.

As far as I can see the Qzero is very practical design and I think it would be difficult to improve it. In its current form (and due to its tiny format) it can be used by tinkerers to make a wide variety of systems. Anything from a QL look-alike (something like a the new Spectrum or the Raspberry Pi 400) to a toughened industrial controller.
The Price of 3D printers and contract printing is now so low one can easily make a one-off box to suit a particular need. As Peter points out a Qzero can be simply placed into a standard or modified mini keyboard.


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