Q40 and Q60 video controller for flatscreen monitors

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Peter
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Re: Q40 and Q60 video controller for flatscreen monitors

Post by Peter »

smsq4ever wrote:
Peter wrote:T.G. your reply just shows that you learned nothing. You had stated in public that most modern LCD monitors will fail with the new chip. Without testing a single device. If that is not very negative, then what is?
Prove me wrong: give me the model numbers of the monitors you successfully tested the video mode against...
I'm not trying to sell anything, and I have neither time for dispute about your harsh negative announcement, nor to prove it is wrong. The new video chip will now be a private, friends-only improvement.

And yes, sometimes a single person agitating in public with such announcements can be enough to demotivate me.


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Re: Q40 and Q60 video controller for flatscreen monitors

Post by smsq4ever »

Peter wrote:
smsq4ever wrote:
Peter wrote:T.G. your reply just shows that you learned nothing. You had stated in public that most modern LCD monitors will fail with the new chip. Without testing a single device. If that is not very negative, then what is?
Prove me wrong: give me the model numbers of the monitors you successfully tested the video mode against...
I'm not trying to sell anything, and I have neither time for dispute about your harsh negative announcement, nor to prove it is wrong. The new video chip will now be a private, friends-only improvement.

And yes, sometimes a single person agitating in public with such announcements can be enough to demotivate me.
I have not been "harsh" in any way. I have been factual, period. I am not responsible for your excessively emotional reactions. I make a simple, logical remark and you go ballistic on it: what can I do ?...

You want me to be harsh ?... Then, here you go: blaming your failure on me is of course easier for you.


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Peter
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Re: Q40 and Q60 video controller for flatscreen monitors

Post by Peter »

smsq4ever wrote:I have not been "harsh" in any way. I have been factual, period.
You announced the chips will fail with most monitors, without having tried even one, no prove at all. There was nothing factual in that very negative announcement.
smsq4ever wrote:You want me to be harsh ?... Then, here you go: blaming your failure on me is of course easier for you.
I have a working solution for me, my friends and all the flatscreen monitors I tried. That's enough for myself and I have no ambitions to "win" a public dispute over your agressive statement.
Last edited by Peter on Wed May 02, 2018 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.


smsq4ever
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Re: Q40 and Q60 video controller for flatscreen monitors

Post by smsq4ever »

Peter wrote:
smsq4ever wrote:I have not been "harsh" in any way. I have been factual, period.
You announced the chips will fail with most monitors, without having tried even one. There was nothing factual in that harsh negative announcement.
I wrote "most", not "all", and If you want facts, just look at the specifications for the said modern monitors: all the ones I could find and the ones I got are specified for 55Hz minimum vertical refresh rate in VESA modes.

And it was not an "announcement", but just a remark.

I asked you (and I'm still begging you) to prove me wrong. Give us the models of monitors you tested successfully with the 1024x768@50Hz video mode, and if they are specified for 55Hz minimum and yet work just fine at 50Hz, then I will happily apologize for being an ugly pessimistic paranoid old man !

Geez, I'm feeling like arguing with a kid at school right now: let's behave like adults; I made a point, not because I want to prove you wrong or humiliate you, but because I am worried your solution would be inadequate.

I made an alternative proposal too (and did so a couple years ago already), that, of course, might or might not be possible to implement (but you never said it was impossible so far), with the 800x600 mode. So I am being constructive as well.


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Dave
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Re: Q40 and Q60 video controller for flatscreen monitors

Post by Dave »

'Most' Samsung monitors made for the last four or five years list a minimum frame rate of 56Hz. They all display 24, 25, 29.98, 30, 50, 59.97 and 60 Hz successfully, even though that is not listed in the spec.

The same chipset is used in a few Samsung TVs. The monitor chipset is a cut down version of the TV chipset. It's made here at the Austin fab.

So although LCDs and LED monitors have become incredibly dumb, they can do things that are not listed in the spec sheet. It doesn't surprise me at all that Peter's mod generally appear to work.


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Peter
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Re: Q40 and Q60 video controller for flatscreen monitors

Post by Peter »

Dave wrote:'Most' Samsung monitors made for the last four or five years list a minimum frame rate of 56Hz. They all display 24, 25, 29.98, 30, 50, 59.97 and 60 Hz successfully, even though that is not listed in the spec.
Someone who actually knows the facts. ;) This is not only true for Samsung, but also LG and others. They allow low frame rates, which is why I was also considering the (harder or maybe impossible to implement) pseudo FullHD, although out of spec. There is nothing that could be damaged by providing a slower signal, so it is a matter of reality, and the actual electronics, not specs. It was always clear that I can only provide a pragmatic solution, not a theoretically perfect one.

By the way, Dave your idea to add an external hardware for line doubling is great. But unfortunately there is no connector on the mainboard to get the digital output signals. One would either have to make a board that plugs into PLCC, or add ADCs. :cry: Nasta once wrote that I should have added such a connector on the Q68, and he was right, it was just too late.


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Re: Q40 and Q60 video controller for flatscreen monitors

Post by smsq4ever »

Dave wrote:'Most' Samsung monitors made for the last four or five years list a minimum frame rate of 56Hz. They all display 24, 25, 29.98, 30, 50, 59.97 and 60 Hz successfully, even though that is not listed in the spec. The same chipset is used in a few Samsung TVs. The monitor chipset is a cut down version of the TV chipset.
Aren't these the HDMI input rates ? Because yes, when the signal comes from the HDMI port, even modern monitors may go down to 24Hz (I suspect they double or triple the frame rate internally from their image buffer). However, for the VGA port (i.e. analog signals), the specifications might be different.
Here are the specs for my Eizo FlexScan EV2455 (which cannot do below 49Hz either via HDMI, if to believe those specs), a 2017 model which is not even of the cheap kind:
FlexScanHD2455.png
So although LCDs and LED monitors have become incredibly dumb, they can do things that are not listed in the spec sheet. It doesn't surprise me at all that Peter's mod generally appear to work.
It would be great if we could get a list of known working (i.e. so far successfully tested) monitors for this 1024x768@50Hz mode, like I have been asking in my previous posts....


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Dave
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Re: Q40 and Q60 video controller for flatscreen monitors

Post by Dave »

Peter wrote:By the way, Dave your idea to add an external hardware for line doubling is great. But unfortunately there is no connector on the mainboard to get the digital output signals. One would either have to make a board that plugs into PLCC, or add ADCs. :cry: Nasta once wrote that I should have added such a connector on the Q68, and he was right, it was just too late.
Would it be too much to design a revised and modernized QX0 PCB with these features? The PCB could come with sockets but no ICs and people could simply transfer their current ICs across to the new board? You could use it as an opportunity to update the video, power and memory sections... I think a lot of people would be interested in that. It would also keep costs low for Derek, as he wouldn't have to gauge demand or buy expensive components like bulk 68060RC75s ;)


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Peter
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Re: Q40 and Q60 video controller for flatscreen monitors

Post by Peter »

Dave wrote:Would it be too much to design a revised and modernized QX0 PCB with these features? The PCB could come with sockets but no ICs and people could simply transfer their current ICs across to the new board? You could use it as an opportunity to update the video, power and memory sections... I think a lot of people would be interested in that. It would also keep costs low for Derek, as he wouldn't have to gauge demand or buy expensive components like bulk 68060RC75s ;)
This is the same line of thought I've also been through long ago. Three issues:
- The probably hardest to source components, the 8 VRAMs, are not socketed. CPU sockets are a pain to get.
- Once you start an improved PCB, you automatically get from idea to idea what could be changed, and have a completely new design in the end
- The Q60 is a retro computer by now, the PCB already designed in 1997, and maybe it should be preserved


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Re: Q40 and Q60 video controller for flatscreen monitors

Post by smsq4ever »

Peter wrote:
Dave wrote:Would it be too much to design a revised and modernized QX0 PCB with these features? The PCB could come with sockets but no ICs and people could simply transfer their current ICs across to the new board? You could use it as an opportunity to update the video, power and memory sections... I think a lot of people would be interested in that. It would also keep costs low for Derek, as he wouldn't have to gauge demand or buy expensive components like bulk 68060RC75s ;)
This is the same line of thought I've also been through long ago. Three issues:
- The probably hardest to source components, the 8 VRAMs, are not socketed. CPU sockets are a pain to get.
- Once you start an improved PCB, you automatically get from idea to idea what could be changed, and have a completely new design in the end
- The Q60 is a retro computer by now, the PCB already designed in 1997, and maybe it should be preserved
Even though a new board seems like a mighty juicy (and thus appetizing) idea, I agree with your points here.

Another suggestion, perhaps: a daughter board which would plug into the FPGA socket that is responsible for the video signals generation, the daughter board in question either providing a socket to plug the old FPGA into, together with another modern (SMD) FPGA to generate all the VESA-compatible video mode signals that fancy you, or right out just one larger and modern FPGA that would replace the old one altogether.


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