n00b question about the mouse and QL/E for TDI

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guibrush
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n00b question about the mouse and QL/E for TDI

Postby guibrush » Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:59 am

Hi all,
Thanks a lot for this forum ! I just did a small presentation of me and my goals in the presentation section, basically I'm the president of the OCCC (Old Computers and Consoles Club) in Switzerland, and our goal is to preserve and present to the public old computers in a working and fully usable state. Now I'm in the process of building a nice QL setup, and my goal is to have it drivable with a mouse, to let people visiting us play with it.

I muss say that I'm a totally n00b in the QL world, I'm an Amiga guy. Therefore, my questions may look stupid to you, I hope you won't mind :-)

What I have now is a working QL, a Tetroïd Disk Interface, the QL/E for TDI image that i found here :
http://sinclairql.net/repository.html#TheDistribution
a CTL to joystick adapter and a SER to DB9 adapter to solder. I have a serial mouse too.
I have now a good working system, thanks a lot to the maker of this distribution, this is awesome !
I can control the pointer with the joystick, but I can't figure out how to make the mouse working.
I tried both DB9 wiring that I found here :
http://www.dilwyn.me.uk/pe/SERMouse.pdf
without success.
My question is : do I have to activate something special, load a driver or install anything to make the mouse work ? Is this wiring diagram the good one ? (I found another one that had nothing to do with that somewhere else, it's confusing for me)
Do I forget something in the process?

Here some videos and pictures of what I have now:
https://imgur.com/a/gNVNvyu

Thanks you verry much for your help and have a nice day !


dilwyn
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Re: n00b question about the mouse and QL/E for TDI

Postby dilwyn » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:31 am

guibrush wrote:I tried both DB9 wiring that I found here :
http://www.dilwyn.me.uk/pe/SERMouse.pdf
without success.
My question is : do I have to activate something special, load a driver or install anything to make the mouse work ? Is this wiring diagram the good one ? (I found another one that had nothing to do with that somewhere else, it's confusing for me)
Do I forget something in the process?

Here some videos and pictures of what I have now:
https://imgur.com/a/gNVNvyu

Thanks you verry much for your help and have a nice day !

Nothing generates as many problems as sermouse! If I had a coin for every query about this over the years, I'd be very rich by now.

I'm assuming that you are using the Pointer Environment?

I cannot guarantee the diagrams are correct because everyone seems to send me different wirings for things - "it works for me anyway". Only to find later that yes, it only worked for them. There is also the problem that some wirings are correct for PC serial ports, but QLs with the Samsung D connectors not necessarily the same.

There are various issues which can arise and people more expert than I will I'm sure go through them one by one. Search for Sermouse on this Forum, you'll find a lot of information and past discussions for sure.

My favourite problem which is easily solved :geek: is the 3 button mouse which will only work in 2 button mode but needs one of its buttons (usually left) held down as you power up with the software configured for 2 button mode. There are also some issues with mouse types, especially those with adaptors, which do not work exactly like older serial mouse do. (So many types nowadays).


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guibrush
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Re: n00b question about the mouse and QL/E for TDI

Postby guibrush » Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:04 am

Thanks for the reply :-)

So, sermouse is a big mess, ok.
I think that I'm under the Pointer environment, this is the desktop by default that come after the boot process when I press "Alt" + "esc" (I found this key combisaison by pure luck).
I browsed the forum and found some threads, but I honnestly can't figure out what I did wrong. No thread talk about driver activation or settings for the mouse (well, no thread that I found), therefore I ask me if there is something to add to have the driver working, or to have the driver at all.

The more I'm reading the instructions of sermouse, the more I'm thinking that a separate driver is needed, despite there is no mention how to install it in the instructions. I just assumed that the QL/E image from QLvsJAGUAR was already loaded with the SERMOUSE drive, but maybe I'm wrong ?

I just tried the tip you gave about pushing the left mouse button while booting, no luck either.
Is there another way to have a mouse under the desktop?


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tofro
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Re: n00b question about the mouse and QL/E for TDI

Postby tofro » Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:31 am

guibrush wrote:So, sermouse is a big mess, ok.


That's probably not the right way to put it, as it might create a wrong impression.

The Sermouse software as such is good, works, and makes the least problems in a serial mouse set-up on the QL.

What is a mess is the large variety of slightly different PC serial mouses available combined with the limitations of the QL's serial ports:
  • Some mouses draw more power than the serial port can supply which leads to intermittent failure
  • There's slight variables in protocol between the serial mouse vendor - On the PC, the specific drivers that came with the mouse could fix this, a generic SerMouse driver can't fix everything
  • You're working with old hardware: It might well be your serial ports are broken. Typical faults are with the line drivers.
  • As Dilwyn already mentioned, pin-outs for QL serial ports (non-Samsung) and PC are not identical (and ser1 and ser2 are different).

BTW: There's no need for a specific driver besides SerMouse - SerMouse is the driver.

Tobias


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guibrush
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Re: n00b question about the mouse and QL/E for TDI

Postby guibrush » Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:14 pm

ok, thanks for the reply.

is there a list of know working mouse?

When I talk about "driver", I mean that I don't even know if SerMouse is even installer and/or activated in the QL/E for TDI image by QLvsJAGUAR. Is I said, I'm really totally n00b in the QL world and I don't even know if I have to install that myself of if this come "by default" in this image.

I have the phone-style plug on my QL and I build the cable according to the info given on the SerMouse page, but I don't really know if this is even the way to go:
https://imgur.com/a/CKrjI0A

Sorry, I warned you that I have dumb questions :-)


EDIT
I tried a command that i found in another thread: copy ser1 to scr
This show garbage on the screen when I move the mouse. I assume then that my mouse and my cable are ok, and that my problem is that the Sermouse package is even not installer or not enabled is the QL/E distribution, right ?

If yes, then how can I install that? Or first, how can I check that Sermouse is there ?

Thank you for your patience :-)
here the video of what I have on the screen:
https://imgur.com/a/YiJq4pX


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ajb
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Re: n00b question about the mouse and QL/E for TDI

Postby ajb » Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:43 pm

You can tell whether the sermouse driver is installed by typing either SERMON or SERMRESET at the command line. If they're not recognised then it isn't installed. Obviously it won't tell you whether it's the 2 or 3 button version. I would expect the driver to announce itself during boot, but I don't use your environment.

I couldn't find a list of compatible mice when I went through the experience, but I see that Cristian is starting one up. I know that the "Microsoft Serial Mouse 2.0A" works and would fit the ethos of your club (rather than getting a PS/2 mouse with a PS/2 to serial converter board). Having a known-good mouse can save a lot of headaches. The wiring table in sermouse.pdf is correct for the above mouse.

Connecting your mouse to a PC running a terminal emulator set for 1200 baud, 1 start, 8 data, no parity, 1 stop and hex display is a good way of seeing what your mouse throws out. For a 2-button mouse it should usually be an 'M' followed by sets of 3 bytes of data (when the mouse is moved or button[s] pressed) in the format given in the link in Christian's new thread. One thing to beware of is that some 3-button mice use a Logitech extension to the 2-button protocol. I've found that that doesn't work and I'm (on and off) designing an adaptor for such mice. I'm currently in the 'off' mode.


Alan


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guibrush
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Re: n00b question about the mouse and QL/E for TDI

Postby guibrush » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:02 pm

ok, I tried to type SERMON under the superbasic, and I get "bad name" as answer. I guess that prove that the serialmouse isn't installed.
What puzzle me is that I can't find an explanation in the package of sermouse that explain how to install it. Has I have no experience at all with the QL, I have no idea how one can install something like this :-)
I tried to read the CF on the PC but looks like the format isn't readable, I'm therefore not able to copy some data on the CF. Maybe I can mount it on some Emulator ?

EDIT

Making a file search with FiFi using the name "sermouse" gave me 1 result "WIN1_sys_sermouse" Maybe I'm in luck and I have the file, and just need to activate it at boot ?
https://imgur.com/a/SCPP1Ls


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guibrush
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Re: n00b question about the mouse and QL/E for TDI

Postby guibrush » Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:28 pm

ok, I managed to find the way to activate the sermouse driver, doing a "LRESPR WIN1_sys_sermouse. this load the 3 button mouse driver.
https://imgur.com/a/GjPXlGn
Now the basic commands like sermreset are recognised. But I'm not done (it would be too easy, for sure): now, when I move the mouse, the cursor jum to the bottom of the screen, and eventually when I press the buttons menus are activated. I have 2 serial mouses, both do the same. I tried to boot with the left button pressed, no change.

What do you think, is this because both mouses arent able to switch to the serial mouse instead the Microsoft protocol ?

Subsidiary question : how can I make the command "LRESPR WIN1_sys_sermouse" resident, to have the mouse each time at boot ?


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Re: n00b question about the mouse and QL/E for TDI

Postby NormanDunbar » Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:45 pm

guibrush wrote:Subsidiary question : how can I make the command "LRESPR WIN1_sys_sermouse" resident, to have the mouse each time at boot ?


You need a file, on the default device, named "boot" - letter case makes no difference. In ther just put:

Code: Select all

1000 LRESPR WIN1_sys_sermouse


Probably win1_boot would be your best bet. You might need:

Code: Select all

500 tk2_ext


as well, if Toolkit 2 isn't enabled at boot time.


Cheers,
Norm.


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guibrush
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Re: n00b question about the mouse and QL/E for TDI

Postby guibrush » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:00 pm

Thanks a lot !
I editet the boot file in WIN1 and managed to have sermouse autobooted.

Now I ordered a mouse with a switch to toggle between Microsoft compatible mode and Serial mode, I think that this can help so solve my last problem.



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